Eve Online How To Create A Jump Clone
HellsGeneral Viraxis
Koybayashi Salvageworks
0
This new jump clone charge is ridiculous for new players. 900,000k every time I want to jump to my training clone is absolutely absurd. Why would you put a tax on jump clones that really only punishes new players? This amount is trivial to everyone except for new players, and you are just creating more barriers to entry for your game.
I cannot create threads in the new feature feedback area, and there is no thread for me to reply to on this issue.
Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
985
What is this training clone?
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
434
training clone?! o.O
Just Add Water
Nalia White
Tencus
172
Nat Silverguard wrote:
training clone?! o.O
a clone with good implants i presume. but is this fee not only applicable when outside of your jump clone timer? if it indeed is so, then i see no problem there. gotta pay for convinience :)
Kiandoshia
Gambrini
2427
Anyone remember back when dying used to cost money?
Also thanks OP. Never thought I'd see someone whine about 900k ISK.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
Black Marker
217
Nalia White wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
training clone?! o.O
a clone with good implants i presume. but is this fee not only applicable when outside of your jump clone timer? if it indeed is so, then i see no problem there. gotta pay for convinience :)
Can't jump with timer.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
985
If you have cybernetics 5 and are jumping to a clone worth half a billion isk then you will probably have to drop the "poor newbie" label at this point.
Meanwhile I never heard of any actual newbies complaining about this. Maybe they just don't jump around that much?
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
Nalia White
Tencus
172
Kiandoshia wrote:
Anyone remember back when dying used to cost money?
Also thanks OP. Never thought I'd see someone whine about 900k ISK.
oh i was missinformed then sorry. nevertheless another isk sink is a good thing.
Spacefaring Bastard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
8
I don't even have a jump clone.
Then again, I also have no idea what a noob is in EVE, because holy ass, this game requires so damn much research to get into.
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
192
If you have a specific training clone, you are no longer a newbie and you are perfectly able to cover the increased clone cost.
If somehow you aren't, then you should feel bad and no amount of fixes from CCP will help you.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
44675
So new players that can afford a training clone are going to not be able to afford the jump tax on an NPC station?
That doesn't quite seem logical.
If that's the case, then it should just be temporary until Citadel owners set prices cheaper as competition.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
33857
Kiandoshia wrote:
Anyone remember back when dying used to cost money?
Also thanks OP. Never thought I'd see someone whine about 900k ISK.
That scale was disproportionate, and also punished players for losing a pod.
The complaint was bound to happen, and if it wasn't sooner it would happen after the clone limit per station/citadel is lifted along with the clone jump cooldown within a station.
This charge was to allow citadel owners the opportunity to make ISK for providing a cloning service, which costs ISK to operate.
ALL of these complaints can be avoided if clone storage is based on a rental fee over time, where you rent a clone bay weekly or monthly.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
W33b3l
Conquest and Kittens
89
I didn't even realize a JC was a thing until over 2 years into the game. I've been playing forever now and I only have a clone for running missions and a clone for PVP. Couldn't even tell you wich one I'm in for sure at the moment because I forget they exist lol. I really need to work on that.
If new players are anything like I was. As in deciding to worry about jump clones and remaps after they get a handle on how the wholly crap do these crazy ships work and why do I suck side of the game, it doesn't surprise me that we don't hear about this much.
Assuming the complaint is valid of course.
Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre StarBurst Pirateers
230
WHY of all things when I have to use a JC to another station have to BUY a clone from the station I am leaving from??? WHY did I lose a JC in what is to be my corparate headquarters in NPC Nulsec??? 900k everytime is just way too much to have to waste for a service that used to be even better than this trash?
NOT a rant btw, good honest to goodness questions, unless these changes were made and nothing was said about losing JCs at a station that is your home base is not good at all.
This ultimately means I aint spending no more isk for a service I can no longer rely on for those times when I need to go either direction, and buy a JC in a foreign station to boot.
Hawke Frost
60
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:
WHY of all things when I have to use a JC to another station have to BUY a clone from the station I am leaving from??? WHY did I lose a JC in what is to be my corparate headquarters in NPC Nulsec??? 900k everytime is just way too much to have to waste for a service that used to be even better than this trash?
NOT a rant btw, good honest to goodness questions, unless these changes were made and nothing was said about losing JCs at a station that is your home base is not good at all.
This ultimately means I aint spending no more isk for a service I can no longer rely on for those times when I need to go either direction, and buy a JC in a foreign station to boot.
Because as you jump to that clone, which thus gets removed, you leave behind a new clone in the station you just left and clone creation requires 900k isk. It's really not difficult to understand.
Shayla Etherodyne
United Nations Industrial Holdings
35
Rain6637 wrote:
Kiandoshia wrote:
Anyone remember back when dying used to cost money?
Also thanks OP. Never thought I'd see someone whine about 900k ISK.
That scale was disproportionate, and also punished players for losing a pod.
The complaint was bound to happen, and if it wasn't sooner it would happen after the clone limit per station/citadel is lifted along with the clone jump cooldown within a station.
This charge was to allow citadel owners the opportunity to make ISK for providing a cloning service, which costs ISK to operate.
ALL of these complaints can be avoided if clone storage is based on a rental fee over time, where you rent a clone bay weekly or monthly.
Interesting idea, but it would generate problems for people leaving the game for an extended period. I have recently returned after staying away for 4 years.
Returning to a depleted wallet and no jumpclones would be annoying.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Violence of Action.
1156
Its only if you're installing a clone.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Claude deTedric
TSL Holdings
The Star League
1
Aiwha wrote:
Its only if you're installing a clone.
If you Jump Clone to another, previously setup, JC in another station somewhere - then you are leaving behind/installing a clone where you jump from.
It now costs 900k in an NPC station. I assure you - it does
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
309
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
If you have cybernetics 5 and are jumping to a clone worth half a billion isk then you will probably have to drop the "poor newbie" label at this point.
Meanwhile I never heard of any actual newbies complaining about this. Maybe they just don't jump around that much?
But just think of the poor noobs to skill queue online who HAVE to pay extortionate amounts of money just to train jump into a different clone to train faster. Everyone knows noobs have clones with hugely expensive implants that they jump back and forth from hundreds of times a day.
You people chasing more and more convenience really make me lose hope in humanity
(Not directed at you Angelique)
A case for more AoE in EvE
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1142
#1stWorldPoors
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
444
This is more of a problem for my alts, they have no income(or next to no income) of their own and thus I will have to keep sending them ISK just to be able to jump around and do what I built them for.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
434
Caldari 5 wrote:
This is more of a problem for my alts, they have no income(or next to no income) of their own and thus I will have to keep sending them ISK just to be able to jump around and do what I built them for.
my main (this character) is **** poor while my alts have all my assets, this character can't even go to hisec safely...
Just Add Water
Galaxxis
Unicorn Rampage
48
This seems like a strange change to me. It does nothing but slightly annoy any older players with billions of isk laying around, and it punishes new players who don't have a lot of money yet, but who also probably aren't using jump clones much either. What's the point?
HellsGeneral Viraxis
Koybayashi Salvageworks
0
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
If you have cybernetics 5 and are jumping to a clone worth half a billion isk then you will probably have to drop the "poor newbie" label at this point.
Meanwhile I never heard of any actual newbies complaining about this. Maybe they just don't jump around that much?
I am an actual newb, that actally likes to do research instead of being spoon fed. My training clone is worth around 40mil and consists of all +3 implants. Which to me is a ton of money. I have done my research to know what I need, but being a newb is based on skill points and actual experience. Not the ability to read a couple guides to learn about jump clones.
Everyone needs to stop pretending they know what it's like to be a newb again, and remember that when I am in space I'm the damn plankton in the ocean. People suicide gank a venture or even an ibis in high sec bc they can. For this reason I can't be carry around implants everywhere I go.
Now I am not complaining about being ganked or working my way up. What I am complaining about is CCP taking away my simple, and what use to be cheap, jump to a clone body full of +3 implants that I can do once every 20 hours. I am a casual player who gets to play a couple days a week, and I don't want an additional tax of jumping to my safe place where I log off for a week at a time. I shouldn't have to pay to reinstall a jump clone at korama every time I jump from it to jita. Once I install a bay, it should stay.
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
43
HellsGeneral Viraxis wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
If you have cybernetics 5 and are jumping to a clone worth half a billion isk then you will probably have to drop the "poor newbie" label at this point.
Meanwhile I never heard of any actual newbies complaining about this. Maybe they just don't jump around that much?
I am an actual newb, that actally likes to do research instead of being spoon fed. My training clone is worth around 40mil and consists of all +3 implants. Which to me is a ton of money. I have done my research to know what I need, but being a newb is based on skill points and actual experience. Not the ability to read a couple guides to learn about jump clones.
Everyone needs to stop pretending they know what it's like to be a newb again, and remember that when I am in space I'm the damn plankton in the ocean. People suicide gank a venture or even an ibis in high sec bc they can. For this reason I can't be carry around implants everywhere I go.
Now I am not complaining about being ganked or working my way up. What I am complaining about is CCP taking away my simple, and what use to be cheap, jump to a clone body full of +3 implants that I can do once every 20 hours. I am a casual player who gets to play a couple days a week, and I don't want an additional tax of jumping to my safe place where I log off for a week at a time. I shouldn't have to pay to reinstall a jump clone at korama every time I jump from it to jita. Once I install a bay, it should stay.
Subscribed! 1M Isk is nothing to old players and quite a lot for newbie. Most old players are in a player Corp anyway so they don't need public clone bays while it's the other way round for noobs. Hopefully the clone bay service will be revived
Btw: what happens to your possessions including clones when you are excluded from a citadel?
Sybella Stareine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
It punishes newbies who jumpclone between, say, hisec for ISK-making and lowsec or NPC null for frig fights.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
913
Galaxxis wrote:
This seems like a strange change to me. It does nothing but slightly annoy any older players with billions of isk laying around, and it punishes new players who don't have a lot of money yet, but who also probably aren't using jump clones much either. What's the point?
It's an ISK sink, for one.
Granted, it's more than I figured they'd make it, but then again, considering how much it use to cost to upgrade medical clones each time you hit an SP milestone or got podded, it's not really a harmful number either. While this isn't the same thing, I strongly doubt this is as "punishing" to newer players as many have expressed. It's more of a nuisance to older players who are use to a system where clone jumping is not tied to a fee -- now it is. I don't see newer players complaining much if at all. In fact, considering all of the changes to clone mechanics that make it easier to use them more freely (can have 5 more JCs now, med clone removal, can cut as much as five hours out of cool-down via skill), this is hardly bothersome. It feels more like people are gripping over something that is no longer going the way they want it to than legitimate concern.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
44675
Sybella Stareine wrote:
It punishes newbies who jumpclone between, say, hisec for ISK-making and lowsec or NPC null for frig fights.
So new players are jumping to clones to go lose ships, but the small jump cost is going to bust their wallet?
The 'think of the children" argument in this thread doesn't seem to make sense.
The reasons the charges were increased however make perfect sense and 900K is less than 1 rat in nullsec, so if new players are jumping to go pvp, then maybe they can just incorporate their soon-to-be daily rat kill into their activities. They'll end up in front both in ISK and skillpoints.
The alternative once Citadels remain in space more than a couple of days before dying, will be to find a cheaper service in a Citadel. Problem for new players solved.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Specia1 K
State War Academy
Caldari State
145
Nobody has mentioned that you had to grind up your NPC standings to be able to install a jumpclone in an NPC station.
If this ISK charge had (and should have been) implemented when they dropped the requirements, nobody would be squawking now.
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1142
Remember the time that getting repeatedly podded back to an alpha clone was bad? I don't since I update my clone per poddings or when I outgrow my current clone.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
43
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Sybella Stareine wrote:
It punishes newbies who jumpclone between, say, hisec for ISK-making and lowsec or NPC null for frig fights.
So new players are jumping to clones to go lose ships, but the small jump cost is going to bust their wallet?
The 'think of the children" argument in this thread doesn't seem to make sense.
The reasons the charges were increased however make perfect sense and 900K is less than 1 rat in nullsec, so if new players are jumping to go pvp, then maybe they can just incorporate their soon-to-be daily rat kill into their activities. They'll end up in front both in ISK and skillpoints.
The alternative once Citadels remain in space more than a couple of days before dying, will be to find a cheaper service in a Citadel. Problem for new players solved.
It's not the ships, it's about the implants. Yeah, if you can manage 1M ISK rats there is no reason to moan baout 1M Isk and the old clone system was cheap for noobs and pricey for vets. Now you are hitting for something that isn't stiffeling for noobs but an annoyance for vets. Don't think that you can find this spot. For you should drop the fee to 100.000 till you've got 5M SP after that it's okay.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
44678
Geronimo McVain wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Sybella Stareine wrote:
It punishes newbies who jumpclone between, say, hisec for ISK-making and lowsec or NPC null for frig fights.
So new players are jumping to clones to go lose ships, but the small jump cost is going to bust their wallet?
The 'think of the children" argument in this thread doesn't seem to make sense.
The reasons the charges were increased however make perfect sense and 900K is less than 1 rat in nullsec, so if new players are jumping to go pvp, then maybe they can just incorporate their soon-to-be daily rat kill into their activities. They'll end up in front both in ISK and skillpoints.
The alternative once Citadels remain in space more than a couple of days before dying, will be to find a cheaper service in a Citadel. Problem for new players solved.
It's not the ships, it's about the implants. Yeah, if you can manage 1M ISK rats there is no reason to moan baout 1M Isk and the old clone system was cheap for noobs and pricey for vets. Now you are hitting for something that isn't stiffeling for noobs but an annoyance for vets. Don't think that you can find this spot. For you should drop the fee to 100.000 till you've got 5M SP after that it's okay.
What? You don't lose implants when you clone jump. They stay perfectly fine in the clone you leave behind.
Are you saying that new players jumping away from implants are suddenly at a disadvantage because they have to pay 900K to jump?
That seems like whinging for the sake of whinging. There is no disadvantage to new or old players having to pay less than 1million ISK to jump clones once a day.
If it's such a problem, then find a cheaper Citadel you have docking rights at.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4387
HellsGeneral Viraxis wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
If you have cybernetics 5 and are jumping to a clone worth half a billion isk then you will probably have to drop the "poor newbie" label at this point.
Meanwhile I never heard of any actual newbies complaining about this. Maybe they just don't jump around that much?
I am an actual newb, that actally likes to do research instead of being spoon fed. My training clone is worth around 40mil and consists of all +3 implants. Which to me is a ton of money. I have done my research to know what I need, but being a newb is based on skill points and actual experience. Not the ability to read a couple guides to learn about jump clones.
Everyone needs to stop pretending they know what it's like to be a newb again, and remember that when I am in space I'm the damn plankton in the ocean. People suicide gank a venture or even an ibis in high sec bc they can. For this reason I can't be carry around implants everywhere I go.
Now I am not complaining about being ganked or working my way up. What I am complaining about is CCP taking away my simple, and what use to be cheap, jump to a clone body full of +3 implants that I can do once every 20 hours. I am a casual player who gets to play a couple days a week, and I don't want an additional tax of jumping to my safe place where I log off for a week at a time. I shouldn't have to pay to reinstall a jump clone at korama every time I jump from it to jita. Once I install a bay, it should stay.
Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
990
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
HellsGeneral Viraxis wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
If you have cybernetics 5 and are jumping to a clone worth half a billion isk then you will probably have to drop the "poor newbie" label at this point.
Meanwhile I never heard of any actual newbies complaining about this. Maybe they just don't jump around that much?
I am an actual newb, that actally likes to do research instead of being spoon fed. My training clone is worth around 40mil and consists of all +3 implants. Which to me is a ton of money. I have done my research to know what I need, but being a newb is based on skill points and actual experience. Not the ability to read a couple guides to learn about jump clones.
Everyone needs to stop pretending they know what it's like to be a newb again, and remember that when I am in space I'm the damn plankton in the ocean. People suicide gank a venture or even an ibis in high sec bc they can. For this reason I can't be carry around implants everywhere I go.
Now I am not complaining about being ganked or working my way up. What I am complaining about is CCP taking away my simple, and what use to be cheap, jump to a clone body full of +3 implants that I can do once every 20 hours. I am a casual player who gets to play a couple days a week, and I don't want an additional tax of jumping to my safe place where I log off for a week at a time. I shouldn't have to pay to reinstall a jump clone at korama every time I jump from it to jita. Once I install a bay, it should stay.
Why don't you just always stay in your learning implants?
EDIT: from your killboard I see you ninja gas mine in wormholes. Indeed it's smart to have an empty clone for that, so you don't lose anymore implants. :)
In this case, noob or not 0.9 mil isn't much compared to the 20m per hour or so you make. Higher reward than highsec, higher risk and/or cost (jump clone) to mitigate that risk.
Or better yet. throw them away all together until he can afford to lose implants. And don't put in 5 implants at the same time. Put in two implants that match the attributes of the skill you're training.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13982
How dare CCP charge us the bounty price of one mid ranged pirate NPC battleship every 19 to 24 hours?
Are they crazy? I mean it's like they think a newbie in a Vexor Navy Issue ratting null anoms can make 16 Jump Clone Jumps worth of isk in just 15 minutes of ratting or something.....
(This is the part where I say "oh wait" as if i didn't know what I was saying all along 
)
Oh, wait......I guess some people are just cheap as hell.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13983
Specia1 K wrote:
Nobody has mentioned that you had to grind up your NPC standings to be able to install a jumpclone in an NPC station.
If this ISK charge had (and should have been) implemented when they dropped the requirements, nobody would be squawking now.
I disagree. Some people will ALWAYS "squak" or something they perceive as a loss or tax, no matter how small. And they will ALWAYS couch their argument in such a way as to deflect from the fact their squawking is really about them. That's the whole basis of "think of the
Maxpie
MUSE Buy-n-Large
Metaphysical Utopian Society Enterprises
446
HellsGeneral Viraxis wrote:
This new jump clone charge is ridiculous for new players. 900,000k every time I want to jump to my training clone is absolutely absurd. Why would you put a tax on jump clones that really only punishes new players? This amount is trivial to everyone except for new players, and you are just creating more barriers to entry for your game.
I cannot create threads in the new feature feedback area, and there is no thread for me to reply to on this issue.
I don't quite get this change either. For most it is neglible, so it seems that for some reason CCP wants to discourage new players from clone jumping. But why? Don't we want to move them out of the central areas?
No good deed goes unpunished
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
192
You guys are way over thinking this.
It's an ISK sink penalty to keep people from going jump bonkers and to promote the Citadel stuff. Nothing more than that.
Be Positive G�� Change yourself first, New Eden will come later G�� EVE is Awesome G�� CCP isn't the enemy G�� Players are people too G�� Where're the clothing blueprints G�� Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Jeez guys and gals,
This is not an ISK sink as it means nothing for those players that have role specific alts. Those players do not use JCs regularly, it is a rare instance for them. The ONLY players that are being impacted are those with jack-of-all-trades characters (all of my accounts), casual players (read me), and new players (they cannot nearly as effectively try out differing roles without incurring a direct, recurring expense).
It is a pure ISK grab from CCP, that really only impacts casual play and poor players (those with limited income, not referring to those with some assets as income and assets are totally different beasts). It removes the viability of an SP specific earning implant heavy JC. I personally have 7 accounts with a single SP gaining, all +5 implant JC. It has taken me MONTHS to train and earn sufficient resources to make the 1-time capital purchase to afford such a set of implants. The ONLY reason that I purchased such a set was that THERE WERE NO ADDITIONAL COSTS associated with operating JCs, the only cost that there has ever been was the JC time delay. These implants could be justified ONLY as a long term purchase (multi-year, that is how I was intending upon using them), as the incremental benefits of a very costly +5 set vs a moderate +3 set is very marginal (I run +3 sets as standard). I jumped into this 1B+ JC every single time that it made sense, and it never leaves the station. Now using that JC, that was setup specifically for that purpose, is financially not viable for a casual player and really makes no sense at all even for a very high income player. Basically with a single UNDOCUMENTED rule change, CCP has removed access to 7B+ of my totally unsaleable assets. In the same fell swoop, the time that I have spent earning said assets and training to utilize those assets have been made irrelevant. JCs are not like other assets, their implants cannot be sold, so CCP has instituted a RECURRING fee to access already purchased, already installed, and totally unsaleable assets.
What does this mean? This means that this single change would cost me ~100M to 250M ISK annually per account to use JCs in the way that I have always used them and a way that has always been permitted. This is a HUGE change for a casual player that pays to play their account vs Plexing their account. I have now effectively lost use of 7B+ of assets. I have lost the use of many, many hours of time for gaining said assets. I no long need or want the skills that I trained to use those unsaleable, player owned assets. it just makes no sense for CCP to effectively remove access to player-owned, already installed, and completely unsaleable assets.
The worst thing about this move is that CCP has now monetarily penalized jack-of-all-trades character development. Now if I want to take my characters that were setup for mining to go ratting or exploring or run missions or whatever, I have to pay a fee to try those things out in an effective way. Going mission running now costs me 1.8M per character more than it used to (jump into a mission JC and back to a mining JC), for a limited income character to begin with. Those who setup role specific alts, do not pay ANYTHING (and guess what, most of these single-role characters in a single account can afford it!). The implementation of a per-use JC fee effectively kills the development of jack-of-all-trades characters and monetarily penalizes anyone who attempts it. 3 years of character development is not totally wasted, but it is substantially discounted.
Those who setup accounts with 3 role specific alts made the right decision, I did not. This specific action could hardly have hurt anyone worse than me. If the documentation backing up this change had been less than deceptive, I would not have setup a new account last week and added a year of gametime to an existing account at the same time.
CCP has screwed me. Without warning, without documentation, without discussion. A $1K annual payment to CCP has now just ended. I will not place another dime in CCP's hands, ever. I may end up playing out my current account time, but probably not. When my next account runs out of time, I like likely cancel all of them.
SHAME on you CCP.
Claude deTedric
TSL Holdings
The Star League
1
Then you are a perfect customer for a player-provided JC service at a new Citadel.
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4388
Zorn Cosby wrote:
It is a pure ISK grab from CCP
ISK is make-believe money, mate.
Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Claude deTedric wrote:
Then you are a perfect customer for a player-provided JC service at a new Citadel.
If it is a zero cost, then yes. But it will not be zero cost and at that point I am still lose, lose.
Where else does CCP have totally unsaleable assets except in installed implants? CCP has screwed all who have invested in implants with the assumption that there would be no operating costs. At the same time CCP has basically LIED about JC costs. All previous communication regarding JC use has been the potential of one-time fees for each site, and maybe not even then if you already had a JC installed there.
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
194
Zorn Cosby wrote:
This is not an ISK sink as it means nothing for those players that have role specific alts.
Trying to mix that comment with this one...
Zorn Cosby wrote:
It is a pure ISK grab from CCP,
... makes my head hurt. ISK grab = ISK sink They are pulling ISK out of the more endowed characters that continue to use NPC stations. Which brings up this quote:
Zorn Cosby wrote:
that really only impacts casual play and poor players (those with limited income, not referring to those with some assets as income and assets are totally different beasts).
Yes, so use Player Citadels which is their point. Also, jump clones are a convenience and utterly unnecessary in HiSec. They are mostly unnecessary in Lo/Null sec with the proper corporations/alliances. If you don't have that benefit, then you'll need to use Player Citadels and their assumed competitive reduced costs for your clone jumping.
New/Poor players don't usually need or use jump clones. They are added expense regardless of this new cost. They are convenience and an efficiency boost. Most new players are working on trying to be efficient players in the basic terms, that's why they are new or poor usually both. Once you get better, then you can start doing things like jump clones.
Now, I say all this as a relatively new, mostly poor, casual player. I generally get less than 4 hours a week online. I've learned a ton in all that time and Jump Clones, while cool, are not needed. Pandora *IS* the multi-talented main on my account. She can fight, build stuff, shop remotely, run missions, do DED sites, etc. etc. No Jump Clone needed, I have plenty to do within 10 jumps any direction.
Again, I would advise against putting so much weight and vitriol into something that is very basic in function and design.
CCP has to start sucking the ISK away from the higher end users in the game and they will chisel away at that as much as they can in any way they can. If it can influence people to use new features, that is just gravy for them.
Be Positive G�� Change yourself first, New Eden will come later G�� EVE is Awesome G�� CCP isn't the enemy G�� Players are people too G�� Where're the clothing blueprints G�� Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Zorn Cosby wrote:
It is a pure ISK grab from CCP
What do you think they're 'grabbing', exactly?
ISK is make-believe money, mate.
They are basically removing my 7B+ of assets from being utilized by my accounts due to an undocumented rule change. This is an in-game ISK grab, sorry that this is a hard concept...
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Yes, so use Player Citadels which is their point. Also, jump clones are a convenience and utterly unnecessary in HiSec. They are mostly unnecessary in Lo/Null sec with the proper corporations/alliances. If you don't have that benefit, then you'll need to use Player Citadels and their assumed competitive reduced costs for your clone jumping.
New/Poor players don't usually need or use jump clones. They are added expense regardless of this new cost. They are convenience and an efficiency boost. Most new players are working on trying to be efficient players in the basic terms, that's why they are new or poor usually both. Once you get better, then you can start doing things like jump clones.
Now, I say all this as a relatively new, mostly poor, casual player. I generally get less than 4 hours a week online. I've learned a ton in all that time and Jump Clones, while cool, are not needed. Pandora *IS* the multi-talented main on my account. She can fight, build stuff, shop remotely, run missions, do DED sites, etc. etc. No Jump Clone needed, I have plenty to do within 10 jumps any direction.
Again, I would advise against putting so much weight and vitriol into something that is very basic in function and design.
CCP has to start sucking the ISK away from the higher end users in the game and they will chisel away at that as much as they can in any way they can. If it can influence people to use new features, that is just gravy for them.
Basic concept. ISK sink is a recurring ISK fee that will be paid, generally it is mean to have a greater impact upon those with substantive income/resources. This implementation is somewhat opposite. Those with higher income and resources are less likely to be impacted since they have role specific alts that do not require JCs....
This has NO IMPACT upon higher end users. This has the greatest impact upon the lowest end users.
JCs are extremely useful to new players, in particular the very newest players. SP gains via expensive + implant JC sets are particularly useful for the very newest players, now SP gains will be far more expensive for those players. I know cause I costed it out when I first started.
So the most heavily impacted players are new, casual, and poor players and the justification for the per-use fee is to help with Citadels? So the richest players gain at the specific expense of those that can least afford it? Gimme a break.
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
195
Zorn Cosby wrote:
So the most heavily impacted players are new, casual, and poor players and the justification for the per-use fee is to help with Citadels? So the richest players gain at the specific expense of those that can least afford it? Gimme a break.
You're proceeding from a false assumption. Somewhere in your arguments I'm sniffing a belief that there is some kind of equality in EVE or in life. I'll help you with that:
* THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN LIFE *
There, now, recompile your thoughts based on the simple idea that for you to prosper, you will need to take the steps necessary to make yourself rich. You are not responsible for the experience of any other player; other than yourself.
Will this change impact you ... clearly it is since you are so passionate about it.
The real question is, what are you going to do about it? Complain here on the forums about it in the vain hope that CCP will take pity on your game play style and revert back? I wouldn't hold my breath. As I've said before, they have their very simple reasons for doing this- regardless of whom it impacts. They want your Jump Clones OUT of the NPC stations, period.
So, I think you can figure out a way around it. Several people have given you some good advice on it. I suggest you take a moment to contemplate how to beat this new challenge. I strongly feel that trying to beat it here in the forums is probably the lowest chance of success at the highest risk of embarrassment. Just my feeling though. Go with your own gut.
Be Positive G�� Change yourself first, New Eden will come later G�� EVE is Awesome G�� CCP isn't the enemy G�� Players are people too G�� Where're the clothing blueprints G�� Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Jazmyn Stone
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
179
I haven't jumped In a while until a couple days ago, and I was surprised to have to pay the fee to install a drone where I was at.
It's not the price, it's the principle.
I am in a ship in Suroken, where I have jumped back and forth before. I have jump clones in Waskisen and Injurnen.
So, as I want to jump to my already installed clone in Waskisen, I had to pay the fee to install the clone in Suroken.
Now I'm in Waskisen, where I already did have a clone, and I want to jump back to Suroken. I now have to pay a fee to install a clone in Waskisen.
Previously, if someone wanted to install a clone where they were at, there was a fee. If we had installed clones in 3 different stations, there was a fee for each one of those. We were able to jump from one clone into another after we waited our 19-24 hours, without paying anything extra.
I am against this new fee, I already paid for the installation of clones at those 3 stations. I don't feel I should have to keep paying every time I jump. (If that's what's going to happen.)
-Jaz
Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
192
Zorn Cosby wrote:
They are basically removing my 7B+ of assets from being utilized by my accounts due to an undocumented rule change. This is an in-game ISK grab, sorry that this is a hard concept...
And yes, ISK does have a cash equivalent, PLEX. So my 7B+ ISK does have a real life cost. The time spent obtaining those resources and training to use those resources has a real life cost as well since I paid cash for that time.
I not only effectively lost the assets, but I also lost the time.
And the award for one of the more ridiculous things I have read in a while goes to....
Lordy lordy, you have to pay 100k isk more per YEAR. You have to run incursions for literally a single hour on a single account to cover the cost for an entire year, by your estimates. You're really calling that significant to the point a single extra hour's grinding for isk in a YEAR is "removing 7b in assets from the game"?
How absurd can you be?
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Zorn Cosby wrote:
So the most heavily impacted players are new, casual, and poor players and the justification for the per-use fee is to help with Citadels? So the richest players gain at the specific expense of those that can least afford it? Gimme a break.
You're proceeding from a false assumption. Somewhere in your arguments I'm sniffing a belief that there is some kind of equality in EVE or in life. I'll help you with that:
* THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN LIFE *
There, now, recompile your thoughts based on the simple idea that for you to prosper, you will need to take the steps necessary to make yourself rich. You are not responsible for the experience of any other player; other than yourself.
Will this change impact you ... clearly it is since you are so passionate about it.
The real question is, what are you going to do about it? Complain here on the forums about it in the vain hope that CCP will take pity on your game play style and revert back? I wouldn't hold my breath. As I've said before, they have their very simple reasons for doing this- regardless of whom it impacts. They want your Jump Clones OUT of the NPC stations, period.
So, I think you can figure out a way around it. Several people have given you some good advice on it. I suggest you take a moment to contemplate how to beat this new challenge. I strongly feel that trying to beat it here in the forums is probably the lowest chance of success at the highest risk of embarrassment. Just my feeling though. Go with your own gut.
The issue is that CCP has materially impacted my gameplay by changing the rules. Not only that, they changed them in a clearly deceptive way. This change will institute a per-use fee (NEVER DISCUSSED, NEVER DOCUMENTED) that will change the use of JCs as they have existed for years and years. This per-use fee may perhaps be lessened by seeking Citadels or Rorqual solutions that were previously unnecessary. However these still require per-use fees associated with the use of existing player owned and player installed assets that are not liquid at all.
At the same time, these fees will go to the very wealthiest players in the game.
I cannot support a company that chooses to massively materially impact the gameplay of existing paying users in a dictatorial and underhanded way.
CCP touts this game as a sandbox. If so, it is a sandbox where CCP just dumped all over casual, jack-of-all-trades characters. I'm just incredibly pissed that CCP has chosen to implement a rule change that has so materially impacted my gameplay with no recompense. 7B+ lost + gametime + SP due to this single undocumented rule change.
At a minimum I should be able to fully recover all of my implant costs for those JCs that I no longer can afford to operate and I should get extractors to recover the SPs that were spent in support of implants that I have no intention of ever using due to the per-use JC fees. As I have said before, if CCP would refund the account that I just setup and the 1 year that I added onto an existing account (all last week), I would walk away from all of my accounts and never look back.
Again, SHAME on you CCP
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Isaac Armer wrote:
And the award for one of the more ridiculous things I have read in a while goes to....
Lordy lordy, you have to pay 100k isk more per YEAR. You have to run incursions for literally a single hour on a single account to cover the cost for an entire year, by your estimates. You're really calling that significant to the point a single extra hour's grinding for isk in a YEAR is "removing 7b in assets from the game"?
How absurd can you be?
It is not just 100K, it is 100M to 250M per account per year.
I do not run incursions and have no interest in doing so. How absurd can you be?
This is not about making more ISK to offset the undocumented rule change, it is about CCP making 7B in assets and time and SP useless without paying fees. A rule change that impacts SP choices and ISK choices and implant choices, yet offering no recompense to those directly impacted.
If we are looking for an ISK sink, how about requiring a 900K ISK fee for the ability to log in? It is the same, you have to pay a fee to access player-owned assets.
I play as much as I want currently so adding additional hours is not an option. CCP now has just reduced my ability to build assets (assuming that I pay fees) or CCP has just made it financially insane to access those assets. Both of these are terrible decisions.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13999
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Isaac Armer wrote:
And the award for one of the more ridiculous things I have read in a while goes to....
Lordy lordy, you have to pay 100k isk more per YEAR. You have to run incursions for literally a single hour on a single account to cover the cost for an entire year, by your estimates. You're really calling that significant to the point a single extra hour's grinding for isk in a YEAR is "removing 7b in assets from the game"?
How absurd can you be?
It is not just 100K, it is 100M to 250M per account per year.
Otherwise known as 1 or 2 hours PER YEAR running incursions.
Quote:
I do not run incursions and have no interest in doing so. How absurd can you be?
This is not about making more ISK to offset the undocumented rule change, it is about CCP making 7B in assets and time and SP useless without paying fees. A rule change that impacts SP choices and ISK choices and implant choices, yet offering no recompense to those directly impacted.
If we are looking for an ISK sink, how about requiring a 900K ISK fee for the ability to log in? It is the same, you have to pay a fee to access player-owned assets.
I play as much as I want currently so adding additional hours is not an option. CCP now has just reduced my ability to build assets (assuming that I pay fees) or CCP has just made it financially insane to access those assets. Both of these are terrible decisions.
The time it took you to type that, you could have done a single level 4 mission and made enough isk for 30 days of jump cloning.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
193
Zorn Cosby wrote:
It is not just 100K, it is 100M to 250M per account per year.
I do not run incursions and have no interest in doing so. How absurd can you be?
This is not about making more ISK to offset the undocumented rule change, it is about CCP making 7B in assets and time and SP useless without paying fees. A rule change that impacts SP choices and ISK choices and implant choices, yet offering no recompense to those directly impacted.
If we are looking for an ISK sink, how about requiring a 900K ISK fee for the ability to log in? It is the same, you have to pay a fee to access player-owned assets.
I play as much as I want currently so adding additional hours is not an option. CCP now has just reduced my ability to build assets (assuming that I pay fees) or CCP has just made it financially insane to access those assets. Both of these are terrible decisions.
You've yet to say how CCP's making 7 bil in assets "useless". If you can't afford 60k/mo running seven accounts, maybe you have bigger problems than we're talking about here.
If you honestly call 60k/mo an "insane fee" to use clones you've invested several billion ISK into, you need to re-think a LOT.
It looks like you never go into null/WHs in the first pace, so you have zero risk of being podded anyway. Stop whining. Jesus.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Isaac Armer wrote:
You've yet to say how CCP's making 7 bil in assets "useless". If you can't afford $60k/mo running seven accounts, maybe you have bigger problems than we're talking about here.
If you honestly call $60k/mo an "insane fee" to use clones you've invested several billion ISK into, you need to re-think a LOT.
It looks like you never go into null/WHs in the first pace, so you have zero risk of being podded anyway. Stop whining. Jesus.
It is a simple cost benefit analysis. +3 implants are moderately priced, so much so that they are standard fare for those that have some assets and live in hi sec, some even use +4 as regular just not me. +5 implants are high dollar, very pricey for the marginal SP gain over a +3 set. The only way that a +5 set of implants can be justified is for a very long term investment for long term SP gain (over years and years). Add in a per-use fee for those implants and the price for the additional SP gain becomes very, very expensive. In general far too expensive to make any financial sense, particularly with extractors around.
Those +5 implants were a single, 1-time capital investment without any operational costs. Now they have a per-use operational cost that via the NPC stations is 900K per use. For most people, this 900K use cost would clearly exceed the marginal value of a short term gain of +2 on SP gain. Even in hi sec you would have to be pretty foolish to run around regularly with 1B in implants. People gank freighters with cargo of that and pods are far easier kills.
This is at least 80K per month per account that has never been necessary. That is 80K out of my pocket to access 1B in assets per character. Would you have any objection to having a 500K account access fee to just login? This action is exactly that, a fee to access resources, not just any resources but resources that are already owned, installed and CANNOT be sold (very few assets like that anymore).
This was just a terrible idea and has massive implications for future choices for CCP. The fact that this was done in a hugely underhanded way with no discussion is so disappointing.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Jenn aSide wrote:
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Isaac Armer wrote:
And the award for one of the more ridiculous things I have read in a while goes to....
Lordy lordy, you have to pay 100k isk more per YEAR. You have to run incursions for literally a single hour on a single account to cover the cost for an entire year, by your estimates. You're really calling that significant to the point a single extra hour's grinding for isk in a YEAR is "removing 7b in assets from the game"?
How absurd can you be?
It is not just 100K, it is 100M to 250M per account per year.
Otherwise known as 1 or 2 hours PER YEAR running incursions.
Quote:
I do not run incursions and have no interest in doing so. How absurd can you be?
This is not about making more ISK to offset the undocumented rule change, it is about CCP making 7B in assets and time and SP useless without paying fees. A rule change that impacts SP choices and ISK choices and implant choices, yet offering no recompense to those directly impacted.
If we are looking for an ISK sink, how about requiring a 900K ISK fee for the ability to log in? It is the same, you have to pay a fee to access player-owned assets.
I play as much as I want currently so adding additional hours is not an option. CCP now has just reduced my ability to build assets (assuming that I pay fees) or CCP has just made it financially insane to access those assets. Both of these are terrible decisions.
The time it took you to type that, you could have done a single level 4 mission and made enough isk for 30 days of jump cloning.
So let us institute a 500K login fee for every single player. 500K each and every time you wish to access your assets retained in your account. This is functionally equivalent to requiring payment for me to access my 1B+ previously purchased and installed JC.
Or give me the money and SP that I spent on that JC.
And again, no interest in incursions or necessarily missions. Cause I would have to pay a 900K fee to appropriately equip my characters to operate effectively in those roles and then another 900K to set them back up in their current roles...
A tax on multi-use characters. Again, more of these multi-role characters are operated by casual players vs the wealthy that have multiple specific role alts.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
194
Zorn Cosby wrote:
It is a simple cost benefit analysis. +3 implants are moderately priced, so much so that they are standard fare for those that have some assets and live in hi sec, some even use +4 as regular just not me. +5 implants are high dollar, very pricey for the marginal SP gain over a +3 set. The only way that a +5 set of implants can be justified is for a very long term investment for long term SP gain (over years and years). Add in a per-use fee for those implants and the price for the additional SP gain becomes very, very expensive. In general far too expensive to make any financial sense, particularly with extractors around.
Those +5 implants were a single, 1-time capital investment without any operational costs. Now they have a per-use operational cost that via the NPC stations is 900K per use. For most people, this 900K use cost would clearly exceed the marginal value of a short term gain of +2 on SP gain. Even in hi sec you would have to be pretty foolish to run around regularly with 1B in implants. People gank freighters with cargo of that and pods are far easier kills.
This is at least 80K per month per account that has never been necessary. That is 80K out of my pocket to access 1B in assets per character. Would you have any objection to having a 500K account access fee to just login? This action is exactly that, a fee to access resources, not just any resources but resources that are already owned, installed and CANNOT be sold (very few assets like that anymore).
This was just a terrible idea and has massive implications for future choices for CCP. The fact that this was done in a hugely underhanded way with no discussion is so disappointing.
So summarizing, you won't use +5s because you think 100k/year is a lot of ISK and you also don't know how to get your pod out?
If you're at your keyboard and bubbles aren't present, how are you getting podded?
As the person above me said, if you would have spent the time you have spent complaining in this thread knocking out a few missions, you would have the ISK to pay for JCing for the rest of the year. It isn't 80k/month. As long as you don't go into null/wormholes, there's no reason to not fly around with +5s. Unless you're AFK-ing and don't have a pod saver tab on your overview. You're paying for the service of being able to vary your attributes based on what pod you use. If you don't think a few isk is worth the extra training time then fine, don't use that pod. Adapt. Or you know, learn how to not get podded in HS.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Isaac Armer wrote:
So summarizing, you won't use +5s because you think 100k/year is a lot of ISK and you also don't know how to get your pod out?
Please stop choosing to lie to the group. This is NOT A 100K ANNUAL ISSUE.
It is 100M to 250M per year per account
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15342
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Isaac Armer wrote:
So summarizing, you won't use +5s because you think 100k/year is a lot of ISK and you also don't know how to get your pod out?
Please stop choosing to lie to the group. This is NOT A 100K ANNUAL ISSUE.
It is 100M to 250M per year per account
OMG!!!!!!1111!!!!!one
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
14003
This thread reminds me of this cartoon.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
194
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Please stop choosing to lie to the group. This is NOT A 100K ANNUAL ISSUE.
It is 100M to 250M per year per account
And? You have seven accounts, multibox blitzing and you can make that much isk in next to no time. In fact, you would have made it already if you spent the last few hours playing EVE instead of complaining.
I also appreciate the fact that you ignored why you can't fly around in +5s and simply get your pod out. In HS at least there is roughly zero risk of being podded, if you're at the keyboard.
I've yet to hear anyone as old as your characters are complain about something as unbelievably trivial as 700 mil/year.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
So I take it that those belittling my issue would have no concerns were CCP to implement a 500K recurring fee to logon to their account and access their assets? And better yet, if they do it without discussing or documenting it?
So I take it that no one would have an issue at all with such an implementation?
This is functionally equivalent to the per-use JC fee. I have a 1B+ asset per account that I cannot access without paying a fee. I cannot sell it and I now cannot access it without paying a fee. Same implementation as a per login fee, you login to gain access to your assets.
This is a fairly substantive rule change that has far-reaching consequences. The implementation was poorly communicated (or not communicated) and poorly conceived. Choosing to make this purely about how to raise ISK is pointless as this is not about making ISK. This is about CCP changing the rules without communication and it having a financial and play impact without any means for player recompense. Is this not wrong on CCP's part or are there more apologists for CCP?
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
194
Zorn Cosby wrote:
So I take it that those belittling my issue would have no concerns were CCP to implement a 500K recurring fee to logon to their account and access their assets? And better yet, if they do it without discussing or documenting it?
So I take it that no one would have an issue at all with such an implementation?
This is functionally equivalent to the per-use JC fee. I have a 1B+ asset per account that I cannot access without paying a fee. I cannot sell it and I now cannot access it without paying a fee. Same implementation as a per login fee, you login to gain access to your assets.
Today I learned I can still play the game if I don't log in, just like I can still play the game regardless of what clone I'm in.
Or maybe (just maybe) we don't fall for reductio ad absurdum
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
197
Those and for me this.
I'm having LK conversation flashbacks...
Be Positive G�� Change yourself first, New Eden will come later G�� EVE is Awesome G�� CCP isn't the enemy G�� Players are people too G�� Where're the clothing blueprints G�� Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15346
Zorn Cosby wrote:
So I take it that those belittling my issue would have no concerns were CCP to implement a 500K recurring fee to logon to their account and access their assets? And better yet, if they do it without discussing or documenting it?
So I take it that no one would have an issue at all with such an implementation?
This is functionally equivalent to the per-use JC fee. I have a 1B+ asset per account that I cannot access without paying a fee. I cannot sell it and I now cannot access it without paying a fee. Same implementation as a per login fee, you login to gain access to your assets.
This is a fairly substantive rule change that has far-reaching consequences. The implementation was poorly communicated (or not communicated) and poorly conceived. Choosing to make this purely about how to raise ISK is pointless as this is not about making ISK. This is about CCP changing the rules without communication and it having a financial and play impact without any means for player recompense. Is this not wrong on CCP's part or are there more apologists for CCP?
mate , they charge me 15 euro per account a month to login , would you cop the hell on.
Edit : Here is the discussion that "never" happen'd.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
315
Zorn Cosby wrote:
So I take it that those belittling my issue would have no concerns were CCP to implement a 500K recurring fee to logon to their account and access their assets? And better yet, if they do it without discussing or documenting it?
So I take it that no one would have an issue at all with such an implementation?
This is functionally equivalent to the per-use JC fee. I have a 1B+ asset per account that I cannot access without paying a fee. I cannot sell it and I now cannot access it without paying a fee. Same implementation as a per login fee, you login to gain access to your assets.
Not belittling your issue, just not believing it.
So across 7 accounts this is going to impact you up to 250 million per account, which means you are saying you jump each account about 278 times each a year, or that you personally make just under 2000 clone jumps per year, which means at least half the time you aren't using your +5s anyway, since you are only spending not much more than 1 day at a time in them.
The math just seems very implausible, however you can either go find a Citadrl that offers a free service, or build your own once prices settle down and it will have 0 impact on your play.
Adapt or die, but crying with exaggerated figures just looks pathetic.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
- Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place. -ship-
-snip-
Please remember those are still work in progress changes (especially the market broker's fee tax amount), so please use constructive feedback in your replies.
So this specific language is part of the issue:
Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price.
This says that there will be a fee to INSTALL a clone at the station. The language does not say THERE WILL BE A NEW PER USE FEE FOR JCs. The language is far less than clear about it. An install fee is 1-time, once I have installed, there should be no additional fee if I leave a clone there. So literally the language says that I would pay to install once and then another 1 time install to leave a clone. The language is obtuse at best regarding additional fees and existing established clones. The context is also important when considering communications, previous implementations of this have always been 1-time and a change from 1-time to per-use, combined with a 9X price hike, it is far from clear exactly how this was going to be implemented.
Still amazed at the CCP apologists on this topic....
Sustrai Aditua
Irubo Kovu
133
I feel compelled to respond.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Adapt or die, but crying with exaggerated figures just looks pathetic.
And your continuing to cherry pick numbers reflects poorly. I have stated 100M to 250M annual costs. And yes, there was a full year where I jumped nearly every single day with max skills.
Claude deTedric
TSL Holdings
The Star League
3
This is also a bit silly.....
Firstly, the change was discussed - see here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=471995
You might notice that the cost was going to be 5m each time - I wonder what you would think about that?
Secondly, I've flown around HS with +5s in for years and years - that's the only way to get the investment back - occasional visits to the clone is not worth it; although it might be convenient now and again if you're not playing for days.
Just like the ridiculously low Sales/Broker taxes we've had for years and years; the clone fees are now being addressed.
The sandbox has indeed had a few rules changed - so what, adapt.
In the few days since the patch - I suspect I've spent at least 9m on this change.
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
356
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
- Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place. -ship-
-snip-
Please remember those are still work in progress changes (especially the market broker's fee tax amount), so please use constructive feedback in your replies.
So this specific language is part of the issue:
Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price.
This says that there will be a fee to INSTALL a clone at the station. The language does not say THERE WILL BE A NEW PER USE FEE FOR JCs. The language is far less than clear about it. An install fee is 1-time, once I have installed, there should be no additional fee if I leave a clone there. So literally the language says that I would pay to install once and then another 1 time install to leave a clone. The language is obtuse at best regarding additional fees and existing established clones. The context is also important when considering communications, previous implementations of this have always been 1-time and a change from 1-time to per-use, combined with a 9X price hike, it is far from clear exactly how this was going to be implemented.
Still amazed at the CCP apologists on this topic....
Yes it does tell you, you just refuse to, or can't see it...
That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC stationWhich means every single time you jump.
You're lucky it got changed to 900k, it was going to be 5mil for every jump.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
194
Zorn Cosby wrote:
And your continuing to cherry pick numbers reflects poorly. I have stated 100M to 250M annual costs. And yes, there was a full year where I jumped nearly every single day with max skills.
You jumped every single day with each of seven accounts for an entire year? How many people fall into that category, do you think? I imagine they might count in the dozens, maybe.
If you learned how to not get podded in HS, you wouldn't have to do this, and you would get faster training time, given you could stay in your +5s all the time.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
316
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Adapt or die, but crying with exaggerated figures just looks pathetic.
And your continuing to cherry pick numbers reflects poorly. I have stated 100M to 250M annual costs. And yes, there was a full year where I jumped nearly every single day with max skills.
It wasn't cherry picked. They are your numbers.
250 is the upper limit of the number you wrote. It's not believable and I would love to see a screenshot of your wallet on all 7 accounts since this change, showing the charge for jumping so frequently. I strongly doubt you are being honest here. You are exaggerating numbers to make a really quite poor point.
But if true, then put your money where your mouth is and post screenshots of you wallet journal showing even just the impact of this on you in the last week.
Across your accounts it should be somewhere between 12 million - 30 million.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Isaac Armer wrote:
You jumped every single day with each of seven accounts for an entire year? How many people fall into that category, do you think? I imagine they might count in the dozens, maybe.
If you learned how to not get podded in HS, you wouldn't have to do this, and you would get faster training time, given you could stay in your +5s all the time.
And I never made any claims about others and their frequency of JC use, except to suppose that the richest players probably have multiple alts per account and will incur less JC use fees than single character accounts. Please state if you believe otherwise.
I would have NEVER purchased or researched into +5 implants if per use JC fees were on the table. Per use JC fees are a pretty big change.
I consider 1B a lot to lose. Never fly what you cannot afford to lose, and I would prefer not to lose 1B. Yes it is more than possible to avoid being podded in even 0.5 space, but it is also nearly impossible to avoid it if someone makes it a point to pod you.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
It wasn't cherry picked. They are your numbers.
250 is the upper limit of the number you wrote. It's not believable and I would love to see a screenshot of your wallet on all 7 accounts since this change, showing the charge for jumping so frequently. I strongly doubt you are being honest here. You are exaggerating numbers to make a really quite poor point.
But if true, then put your money where your mouth is and post screenshots of you wallet journal showing even just the impact of this on you in the last week.
Across your accounts it should be somewhere between 12 million - 40 million.
But you did cherry pick, you only used the highest number that I gave without showing the lowest number or even indicate that I had listed a range, that is called cherry picking.
And since the change, I have not JC'd once. It is financially stupid to do so. To use a JC clone to gain SP is dumb now when there are extractors on the market. The only reason that this is so is due to the new per use JC fee. JCing into +5 sets is just too costly for the minimal return.
If CCP really believes that charging players to JC is a good idea (I do not), then they need to provide a mechanism for players to sell their existing JC implants vs making those implants far less useful.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
195
Zorn Cosby wrote:
And I never made any claims about others and their frequency of JC use, except to suppose that the richest players probably have multiple alts per account and will incur less JC use fees than single character accounts. Please state if you believe otherwise.
I would have NEVER purchased or researched into +5 implants if per use JC fees were on the table. Per use JC fees are a pretty big change.
I consider 1B a lot to lose. Never fly what you cannot afford to lose, and I would prefer not to lose 1B. Yes it is more than possible to avoid being podded in even 0.5 space, but it is also nearly impossible to avoid it if someone makes it a point to pod you.
The irony is you say this as someone running 7 accounts, supposedly logging into all seven daily. You should be at the upper end of being able to earn ISK.
Adapt, mate. You're the only one here who is complaining. Only having to pay 900k/jump to use an NPC station is pretty reasonable. Change with the times. Don't use NPC stations. Use a citadel. Stop complaining and do something about it.
One bil over the course of an entire year is a trivial cost, especially for a vet like you with seven accounts. But again, if you don't like it, good news! There are ways around it! Actually USE your +5s in HS. How on earth do you keep getting podded in HS anyway? I can send you a pod saver tab layout, since you apparently need one. There's basically one fit for one ship in the game that can lose a pod in HS, and that assumes you died in the first place. You have seven accounts. I assume you use scouts, yeah?
Undock in your +5 clone, and learn how to pay attention when PvE-ing in HS.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
316
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
It wasn't cherry picked. They are your numbers.
250 is the upper limit of the number you wrote. It's not believable and I would love to see a screenshot of your wallet on all 7 accounts since this change, showing the charge for jumping so frequently. I strongly doubt you are being honest here. You are exaggerating numbers to make a really quite poor point.
But if true, then put your money where your mouth is and post screenshots of you wallet journal showing even just the impact of this on you in the last week.
Across your accounts it should be somewhere between 12 million - 40 million.
But you did cherry pick, you only used the highest number that I gave without showing the lowest number or even indicate that I had listed a range, that is called cherry picking.
And since the change, I have not JC'd once. It is financially stupid to do so. To use a JC clone to gain SP is dumb now when there are extractors on the market. The only reason that this is so is due to the new per use JC fee. JCing into +5 sets is just too costly for the minimal return.
If CCP really believes that charging players to JC is a good idea (I do not), then they need to provide a mechanism for players to sell their existing JC implants vs making those implants far less useful.
I think you lack understanding of the term. I used the worst case of what you actually wrote as an indication of the maximum impact.
However as you admit, so far it's cost you 0 and yet here you are whinging.
The only thing stupid is this argument. Put up your own Citadel and set the fee to 0.
Not only would you gain an asset to provide passive income, but you can jump to your hearts co tent.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
196
Zorn Cosby wrote:
And since the change, I have not JC'd once. It is financially stupid to do so. To use a JC clone to gain SP is dumb now when there are extractors on the market. The only reason that this is so is due to the new per use JC fee. JCing into +5 sets is just too costly for the minimal return.
You sure about that?
You having +5s instead of +3s plugged-in 1/2 the time you're playing (assuming you JC daily, as you claim) gives you roughly 750k more skill points. That cost to you (using your own numbers) is 250k isk annually. You JC-ing to use your +5s is choosing to pay 250k isk for roughly 750k skillpoints more in a year.
Conversely, you buying a single skill injector is choosing to pay 620 million ISK for 300-400k more skill points.
Tell me again how skill injectors are more financially viable for you than paying JC fees? You already own the +5s. That's a sunk cost. From an accounting point of view, please treat it as such if you want us to take your numbers seriously.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Drago Shouna wrote:
Yes it does tell you, you just refuse to, or can't see it...
That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC stationWhich means every single time you jump.
You're lucky it got changed to 900k, it was going to be 5mil for every jump.
I could easily handle a 5M 1-time fee, not that I'd be happy about it, but 1-time is just a capital cost. It is the recurring part that is the killer, and a 5M recurring fee is unreal stupid high (actually recurring fees are dumb as it just financially penalizes non-specialized characters).
And you are choosing to take the language out of context. Was there not a reference to an INSTALL fee? Are install fees typically recurring? I believe that you are choosing to be an apologist for CCP's very poor wording choice. It is not at all clear from the use of language and the context of that language that this was to be a per-use fee for every single time a JC is used. I, and a number of others, believed that I would have to pay a fee to install and a fee to leave and then so long as these clones were retained at the location then no more fees would be assessed. And it was unclear as to what would happen with existing installed JCs.
There were far clearer ways to communicate the eventual implementation methodology used; ways that would have imparted clearly that this was a major change in the JC process. This would have prompted serious discussions on the implications that financially penalizing JC use would have upon players and the game. I am unaware that these discussions took place.
Zorn Cosby
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
Isaac Armer wrote:
You sure about that?
You having +5s instead of +3s plugged-in 1/2 the time you're playing (assuming you JC daily, as you claim) gives you roughly 750k more skill points. That cost to you (using your own numbers) is 250k isk annually. You JC-ing to use your +5s is choosing to pay 250k isk for roughly 750k skillpoints more in a year.
Conversely, you buying a single skill injector is choosing to pay 620 million ISK for 300-400k more skill points.
Tell me again how skill injectors are more financially viable for you than paying JC fees? You already own the +5s. That's a sunk cost. From an accounting point of view, please treat it as such if you want us to take your numbers seriously.
And again the numbers that I am discussing is not K, but M. Quite a difference between thousand and millions.
And I am not going to be buying extractors as they are too expensive as well given that my income is fixed.
Gosh yall just cannot see the forest for the trees. This is bad for players. It devalues and restricts access to existing unsaleable resources. It financially penalizes players who wish to less than specialized, those with multiple single role alts are totally unaffected. How is doing this beneficial? Why are the apologizing for CCP's less than stellar language and choices in this area?
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
196
Zorn Cosby wrote:
And again the numbers that I am discussing is not K, but M. Quite a difference between thousand and millions.
And I am not going to be buying extractors as they are too expensive as well given that my income is fixed.
Gosh yall just cannot see the forest for the trees. This is bad for players. It devalues and restricts access to existing unsaleable resources. It financially penalizes players who wish to less than specialized, those with multiple single role alts are totally unaffected. How is doing this beneficial? Why are the apologizing for CCP's less than stellar language and choices in this area?
Apologies for using the wrong nomenclature. That doesn't change the fact that you choosing to not swap to +5 clones is significantly less cost effective than using skill injectors. I brought those up because you used skill injectors as an excuse to stop using your clones.
Why shouldn't less specialized players be penalized compared to specialists? That's literally the main benefit of specializing in anything, anywhere. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
CCP was clear. The fact you missed the thread, dev blogs, etc. isn't anyone's fault but your own. There was a time long before this update for you to give input. You missed the boat.
You also are a bit shortsighted. CCP wants to incentivize players to build/run things themselves. This isn't a punishment, it's an encouragement for player run markets for clones through citadels. Anything that pushes something from being NPC run to player run is a good thing. Get started building your citadel. Hell, let other people like yourself set up clones there and make some ISK on it. What are you waiting for?
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
316
Zorn Cosby wrote:
Gosh yall just cannot see the forest for the trees. This is bad for players. It devalues and restricts access to existing unsaleable resources. It financially penalizes players who wish to be less than specialized, those with multiple single role alts are totally unaffected. How is doing this beneficial? Why are the apologizing for CCP's less than stellar language and choices in this area?
We can see the forest for the trees just fine.
CCP wanted to provide some room for players to offer competitive services to other players and for that to happen, the cost of NPC jump clone services needed to rise.
That's the forest.
Your trees issue, the potential impact on you individually doesn't override what is good overall for CCPs strategy. By your own admission, it's had 0 ISK impact so far and since you claim to use all 7 accounts virtually daily (in order to be jumping so much) they can't all be pvping, so they must also be earning you ISK unless you are just sitting around socialising.
So you've already offset the cost of this by whatever ISK you've earned and you have the same opportunity we all have to make the cost be exactly 0, by finding a 0 fee Citadel or building one yourself.
Isaac Armer
Tactical Stability Union
Apocalypse Now.
197
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
We can see the forest for the trees just fine.
CCP wanted to provide some room for players to offer competitive services to other players and for that to happen, the cost of NPC jump clone services needed to rise.
That's the forest.
Your trees issue, the potential impact on you individually doesn't override what is good overall for CCPs strategy. By your own admission, it's had 0 ISK impact so far and since you claim to use all 7 accounts virtually daily (in order to be jumping so much) they can't all be pvping, so they must also be earning you ISK unless you are just sitting around socialising on 7 different characters.
So you've already offset the cost of this by whatever ISK you've earned and you have the same opportunity we all have to make the cost be exactly 0, by finding a 0 fee Citadel or building one yourself.
+1
I'd also be very curious to see why this dude has seven accounts where none of them are specialized, and all are jack-of-all-trades characters.
Other than scamming/awoxxing (and if that's what you're doing, you would have the ISK to spare, IMO), not sure why anyone would set up that way.
Captain Quiff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
JC could also be seen as denying content to others to be fair. An example may be getting camped? JC to a quieter system, result.....
Besides it's 900k even a new player could make that back in a few minutes.
Rollo Brinalle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
34
HellsGeneral Viraxis wrote:
This new jump clone charge is ridiculous for new players. 900,000k every time I want to jump to my training clone is absolutely absurd. Why would you put a tax on jump clones that really only punishes new players? This amount is trivial to everyone except for new players, and you are just creating more barriers to entry for your game.
I cannot create threads in the new feature feedback area, and there is no thread for me to reply to on this issue.
It was originally going to be 5 million per jump be thankful it's only 900k.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
435
Zorn Cosby wrote:
a lot of BS
dude you are right, this change was specifically made against you, to annoy you. CCP wants to make things hard for you, because let's face it 200M/year/account isk just to jump clones is too much.. i am on the impression that they want you to quit, so let's call on their shenanigans and just do what they want and quit, let's show them!!! 
btw, can i haz your stuff if you quits? 
Just Add Water
Alessienne Ellecon
Solitude Rangers
41
To be fair, it IS going to be a pain in the rear to poorer players, especially if you get ganked frequently and struggle to make up the losses.
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7601
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Those and for me this.
I'm having LK conversation flashbacks...
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
201
Lucas Kell wrote:
There, there.
LOL! 
Be Positive G�� Change yourself first, New Eden will come later G�� EVE is Awesome G�� CCP isn't the enemy G�� Players are people too G�� Where're the clothing blueprints G�� Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Keebler Wizard
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
Zorn Cosby wrote:
I consider 1B a lot to lose. Never fly what you cannot afford to lose, and I would prefer not to lose 1B. Yes it is more than possible to avoid being podded in even 0.5 space, but it is also nearly impossible to avoid it if someone makes it a point to pod you.
Where the hell are you getting this 1b per implant set number? I just bought +5s, including social (which how often gets used?) and they ran 100m each. 500m. 500M x 7 = 3.5b.
And we should trust your math...
Eve Online How To Create A Jump Clone
Source: https://eve-search.com/thread/479673-1/page/all
Posted by: alstonorwits.blogspot.com
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